Below are what I consider some of the advantages of non-Orthodox practice and some of the advantages of Orthodox practice, in terms of the values that they hold.
Non-Orthodox (hey, I'm Conservative, so I'm starting with my own folks first):
Okay, the Conservative Movement's Rabbinical Assembly does
not approve, but even most Conservative Jews use means of transportation other than their feet on Sabbath and major holidays. However, before my Orthodox brethren and sistren get too exercised about this, please understand that some of us have serious reasons for doing so. Consider my friend with
Multiple Sclerosis, who can't even get to her building's entrance/exit door, much less to a synagogue, without using an elevator, or my parents, who, even before my mother
broke her hip last week, couldn't go to synagogue unless someone drove them there. Perhaps I'm misinformed, but my understanding of halachah/Jewish religious law is that it shows little mercy for those with mobility challenges. If a person can't walk to a seder, or to a synagogue or sukkah on a Sabbath or major holiday, the person just can't go, period. An Orthodox Jew with limited mobility is basically a prisoner of his/her home every Sabbath and major holiday.
Update and correction: Thanks to commenter Miami Al, I've discovered the existence of the
Shabbat scooter. [Mon., Oct. 27, 2014: Try
this link, or, better yet,
this one.]
An Orthodox Jew who, by the spin of the genetic lottery, happens to be born gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender is just plain out of luck. That person can stay in the closet and find excuses not to marry, stay in the closet and marry someone of a gender other than the preferred one, or, well, leave the Orthodox community. Frankly, if there are any other options, they're either extremely difficult and taken by the brave only, or I just don't know them.
Our Orthodox brethren and sistren take so literally the Biblical verse "p'ru u-r'vu, be fruitful and multiply," that a married Orthodox Jew simply does not have the option of remaining childless, if fertile. There are even questions as to the minimum number of children permissible, the answer depending on one's interpretation and/or rabbi, I presume.
I've blogged about this before, but, at the risk of repeating myself, let me just say that there are certain things that an Orthodox Jew can't say without being deemed a kofer/apikorus/heretic. An Orthodox Jew can "finesse" it, to a certain extent, saying, for example, "Rabbi X rules this way, but I don't follow that ruling, I follow Rabbi Y's interpretation." But, in the final analysis, only on an anonymous blog can an Orthodox Jew admit to having doubts about, for example, whether HaShem really gave us the Torah on Har Sinai or whether it was written by inspired human beings. You have to buy into the belief system, or at least, give the members of your community the impression that you do, if you wish to remain within the community and/or if you don't wish to jeopardize your children's marriage prospects.
Anyone who's been reading this blog for more than about 2 1/2 minutes has already figured out that I'm not only a feminist, but an egalitarian, as well, believing that women and men should have equal opportunities in all aspects of Judaism. As I've blogged previously, it's not the
mechitzah that's the problem, it's everything that
doesn't come with it: being counted in a
minyan, being allowed to lead any part of a public religious service, etc. Some of us just can't reconcile ourselves to the idea that the separate roles assigned to men and women by the rabbis over a thousand years ago are still binding on us today and can't be changed.
Orthodox
- A sense of structure and permanence in an ever-changing world
The Torah's been around for a good while. Maybe the rabbis knew/know a thing or two, and we don't have to reinvent the wheel in every generation.
This is, to a certain extent, the flip side of the "freedom of movement" argument--nothing is more likely to engender a sense of community than knowing that you can visit any member of your congregation on foot on a Shabbat/Sabbath or Yom Tov/holiday because they all live within walking distance of the synagogue.
- A shared commitment to observance
No Orthodox Jew (except a medical professional who needs one for life-saving purposes) would dream of even
bringing a cell phone to synagogue on the Sabbath, much less leaving it
turned on. It's also nice that an Orthodox Jew doesn't have to worry about going to the neighbor's house for dinner because everyone in the community keeps kosher. In fact, families of the more observant Conservative variety have been known to leave the Conservative Movement for Orthodoxy because Shabbat observance among their Conservative counterparts is often such a low priority that many kids go to soccer practice, ballet class, piano lessons, etc. on Saturday, leaving the children of the more observant Conservatives without Shabbat playmates.
For me, the chief advantages of being non-Orthodox are that I can travel to the synagogue or seder of my choice, discuss my true beliefs (or lack thereof) without worrying that my frankness will make it impossible for my son to find a wife, and lead the weekday morning minyan. The chief drawback is the relative lack of shared observance. I
hate it when people's cell phones ring in shul on Shabbat!
Kindly read the comments here first, then see part 2, the "tachlis" (nitty-gritty practical details) version,
here.
28 Comments:
Just a few thoughts...
Regarding movement, outside of NYC, religious neighborhoods normally aren't so heavy on the multiple story buildings, so a single family home or an apartment on the first floor alleviates that. The Shabbat Scooters are common for the elderly with mobility problems, I believe on Shabbat mode they are slightly less maneuverable because the controls use a gramma (indirect action), but Jews that can't walk long distances can certainly get around on Shabbat. OTOH, you can't go to a Seder/Service in another community without staying over Shabbat. To be honest, the Conservative movement's heter for driving to Shul is WAY more narrow than handled by people... It is designed for suburban Jews to get to/from Shul, not necessarily to go from town-to-town (which is a separate prohibition). In communities without an Eruv, there is more limitations on Shabbat, a Shabbat Scooter or stroller would not be permitted (I believe on the Shabbat Scooter, I've never needed one or lived outside an Eruv, so I haven't researched it).
The close knit community is one of the nicest aspects of travel restrictions. Although, as a BT, an adult sleepover at a non-family member's house just seems "odd" to me, but it seems to be common for a Bar Mitzvah or just a Shabbat visit, so that's my American cultural prejudice, not really a limitation. I love when people are out and about and just drop in on us over Shabbat, things that might not happen if we weren't all in a single neighborhood.
Regarding the Gay/Childless issue, Rabbinic Judaism is a family oriented religion. The most popular ritual, the Seder, is oriented around transmitting our Mensorah (tradition) to our children, filled with oddball rituals designed to provoke questions amongst the young. Gay couples, childless by choice couples, and even childless by infertile couples really don't have a huge place in the religion. They are welcome to find a place if they want, but they aren't going to be catered to. For a culture focused on transmitting the traditions to the next generation, there isn't a lot of room for them, and sacrificing the family oriented religion for them would take away from that primary purpose. So I agree with your assessment, but given how non child-friendly the heterodox movements are, I think that Orthodoxy is smart to focus on those having children. Same thing with family size, if your goal is to produce an ever larger number of Orthodox Jews, you want to focus on that, not those that don't want them.
Regarding egalitarianism, there is certainly some experimentation on the left wing, and women with an egalitarian bent can find some expression, but a Jewish woman that wants to lead a minyan, have an Aliyah, etc., will find limited expression in Orthodoxy. The question in my mind is does she have room to express herself and enjoy herself in the role Orthodoxy has for her... if so, wonderful, if not, I agree she ought to find something else.
The count in a minyan argument is foolish to me... the woman doesn't need a minyan, so her not "counting" is someone silly. Men have to wait until another man shows up, the woman there to davin is free to do so and leave, her counting just traps her there... Counting in a minyan isn't a privilige, it's a burden that caused me to be intercepted on my way to the bathroom in Tel Aviv for a minyan call, early morning phone calls when the minyan is short, etc., it's not like you get an "I prayed" sticked like you get an "I voted" one on election day. :)
Regarding freedom of speech, it's a quasi-real situation... I think that it's overstated on the blogosphere... The Yeshiva system certain discourages creative thought or questioning... since that appears to be a violation of Jewish law, I'm not sure that you can blame Orthodoxy for it... just the spineless MO leadership that let's Hareidi Rabbeim mascaraed as Orthodox Rabbis and run the schools... many of which teach things that are antithetical to Judaism and Halacha (the opposition to learning a trade and livelihood in favor of learning appears to be a borrow from the monasteries of Catholic Europe, since Halacha considers not teaching your child a trade teaching him to be a thief.
Regarding the "marriage for your child," appears to be a mostly Hassidic situation that is scaring Orthodox Jews... As far as I've seen, American Orthodox Jews are as materialistic as ANY American Jews, and whatever nonsensical argument about views, opinions, or Minhagim are cited regarding marriage, it really comes down to money and status, and the Jewish issues are a fig leaf to try to avoid appearing materialistic. You see it a LOT on the blogs, but I don't know how real it is on the ground... given how many women I know from right-wing or Hareidi families in NYC are in my neighborhood married to doctors and lawyers, I think that the focus on "table clothes" is less real than it seems on the blogs... or the rules just don't apply to the well-to-do... :)
Al, thank you for your well-thought-out reply. A special thanks for your mention of the Shabbat scooter. I'd never heard of such a thing, so I Googled it, and holy Moses, look what I found!
"To be honest, the Conservative movement's heter [a lenient interpretation, permitting something that's usually prohibited] for driving to Shul is WAY more narrow than handled by people... It is designed for suburban Jews to get to/from Shul, not necessarily to go from town-to-town (which is a separate prohibition)." Um, yeah. That's pretty much what I was talking about when I said that the RA disapproves, but many Conservative Jews drive everywhere on Shabbat--not just to synagogue--anyway.
"The close knit community is one of the nicest aspects of travel restrictions." Yep.
"Gay couples, childless by choice couples, and even childless by infertile couples really don't have a huge place in the religion. They are welcome to find a place if they want, but they aren't going to be catered to. For a culture focused on transmitting the traditions to the next generation, there isn't a lot of room for them, and sacrificing the family oriented religion for them would take away from that primary purpose." I didn't mention it in my post, but I think that the same applies to singles (by choice or otherwise).
"The count in a minyan argument is foolish to me... the woman doesn't need a minyan, so her not "counting" is someone silly." It isn't so silly when the minyannaires object to your presence because they don't need you, they need your husband. Or haven't you ever noticed that the prayer for the congregation asks for blessings for "the people of this congregation, them *and their wives . . .* A woman who is not married (single, widowed, or divorced) and whose father is deceased is not only *not* considered a part of the congregation, she doesn't even have anyone praying for blessings for her. Never forget that, in halachah/Jewish religious law, obligation, however burdensome, also brings privileges, and being considered an actual member of the congregation, rather than just a not-always-welcome guest, is one of them.
"the opposition to learning a trade and livelihood in favor of learning appears to be a borrow from the monasteries of Catholic Europe, since Halacha considers not teaching your child a trade teaching him to be a thief." That's an intriguing theory. My husband will probably find it very interesting, whereas my ex-black-hat rabbi would probably be scandalized.
"As far as I've seen, American Orthodox Jews are as materialistic as ANY American Jews, and whatever nonsensical argument about views, opinions, or Minhagim are cited regarding marriage, it really comes down to money and status, and the Jewish issues are a fig leaf to try to avoid appearing materialistic. You see it a LOT on the blogs, but I don't know how real it is on the ground... " So you think that thousands of Orthodox Jews who'd dearly love to be married are being left out in the cold due to greed? What a depressing thought.
The chief drawback is the relative lack of shared observance. I hate it when people's cell phones ring in shul on Shabbat!There are reasons beyond "observance" that cell phones ringing in shul are inappropriate. Would it be ok if their cell phones were ringing during weekday minyan?
No, now that you mention it--I hate that, too, since a ringing cell phone distracts from the sanctity of a service. But on Shabbat or Yom Tov, when one isn't even supposed to be using a phone at all (barring a life-threatening emergency), a ringing cell phone is even worse. One day of the week, we should be free of the incessant demands of never-out-of-reach modern communication technology.
Here's a post I wrote a while back about Orthodoxy and technological innovation, which includes the shabbat scooter...and many others.
Jewish Practical InnovationThere are also wheelchair enabled shuls (with ramps), mikvaot, and Shabbat elevators.
I carry a variety of cellphones and electronic equipment to shul on shabbat (along with an m16) for IDF and medical emergency response.
I don't think that Orthodoxy and your list are conflicts of values,
rather conflicts of lifestyles.
Your entire list is addressed within liberal Modern Orthodoxy :)
Lastly -- look at the biblical judge Devorah who was the last say in the matter in her time for religious law.
Jameel, thanks for the links, though I'm sorry to say that my Hebrew is not nearly good enough to enable me to read them.
"I don't think that Orthodoxy and your list are conflicts of values, rather conflicts of lifestyles."
One could make a case that at least some of the items on the list involve conflicts of both.
"Your entire list is addressed within liberal Modern Orthodoxy :)"
Not exactly, but liberal Modern Orthodoxy is about as close as one get, anyway, within the Orthodox community.
"look at the biblical judge Devorah who was the last say in the matter in her time for religious law." I'm sorry to say that the operative phrase is "in her time." Rather than using Devorah's position as a precedent for including women in the halachic-decision-making process, the rabbis ruled that Devorah as judge was an anomaly, an exception to the rule, and that, while her leadership was needed in her time, the role of woman as judge was never to be repeated. According to halachah/Jewish religious law, a woman is not even permitted to be a witness, much less a judge. If female scholars of the caliber of B'ruriah had had full authority to participate as equals in the development of halachah/Jewish religous law in the days of the compilation of the Mishna and Gemara, a solution would have been found for the agunah problem before it even existed.
"It isn't so silly when the minyannaires object to your presence because they don't need you, they need your husband."
That's poor behavior in your congregation. Needing your husband is a separate issue from being rude to you. Asking you to drag your husband should have nothing to do with it... but poor behavior turns people off.
The poor behavior and push back is passive aggressive anger that is misplaced... they aren't upset that you are there, they are upset that the men aren't there for the men's club that the synagogue used to be. I reiterate my object to Heterodox Judaism, it's pushed the men out. Combined with the overly simple understanding that if the woman is Jewish, the children are, the husband/father and his role in Judaism has been marginalized by egalitarian Judaism that pushed the men out. At least Reform is being intellectually honest and letting their men consider being a father relevant to the children being Jewish... how many Conservative men make Kiddush for their family on Shabbat, let alone take a role in making certain that their children are Jewish.
One of the guys was standing outside our small Shul, ushering people in for our minyan. One of the sort-of BT women came by and he jokingly said, "you're welcome to join us, but we don't need you..." and she was offended... one of the events that pushed her out of her exploration of Orthodoxy. A bad joke pushed someone away, it wasn't the counting the minyan that was the problem, it was the bad joke.
I believe partnership minyans wait until 10 men AND 10 women... Bringing women into your services should not be an excuse to excuse the men, which it sadly becomes by dropping the minyan requirement.
You also wrote, "Or haven't you ever noticed that the prayer for the congregation asks for blessings for "the people of this congregation, them *and their wives . . .* A woman who is not married (single, widowed, or divorced) and whose father is deceased is not only *not* considered a part of the congregation, she doesn't even have anyone praying for blessings for her."
Actually, no I haven't... you've paid far more attention to the wording than most... But yes, communal prayer stems from an era of male congregations and their wives, and the wording as such offends liberal sensitivities.
For that reason, I think that Tehillim Groups and "Amen" parties, as silly as them seem, seem like a more authenticate attempt to offer women that want it a communal prayer opportunity without taking on male roles, since they aren't reading a male-oriented prayer book. Feminist Orthodoxy is in its infancy, and would benefit from outspoken women that want a bigger role. However, the young feminist Orthodox women are too busy with small children, so this is a charge for the older crowd to create opportunities for women so that the younger women have something beyond a book club when their children are older.
"So you think that thousands of Orthodox Jews who'd dearly love to be married are being left out in the cold due to greed? What a depressing thought."
I think that most of them are a function of themselves, unfortunately. I don't think that there are singles out there that can't find a Jewish spouse because their parents were outspoken about a Chumrah adopted by the community. I think that the Shidduch world works for the daughters of rich men that will indulge their princess and her husband, and lazy men that want to be supported by their father-in-law, and everyone else is left to fend for themselves, and rebuilding the decimated singles network is key... Coed dances/mixers at Orthodox Shuls were the norm 2 generations ago, providing a Chaperoned (required by Halacha) environment for people to meet... as the Hareidi insanity and worship of a world that never existed has spread throughout Orthodoxy, singles aren't even welcome to mingle at a table at a wedding where they might meet other singles.
The onus is on the singles not being served to find new avenues to meet other Jews... as the growth of JDate and Frumster shows, those that want to meet can do it...
The historic "spinster rate" in the west was around 25%, approximately 25% of women died without ever marrying. I don't get the impression that in the Orthodox world for all its "crisis" approach is exceeding 5%-10%, so some of it is natural. Some men/women have historically been unmarried, the Church created Monastaries and Convents to suck them up, we just lock the men up in Yeshiva and drive the women to suicide to avoid the problem...
I think you have really summed up my comment about "leaning into the wind of MO" - it's the fact that even if you ARE Conservative, which we are, it is hard to find community who is AS observant and who don't find YOUR level of observance uncomfortable. The problem is, in pants and a blouse, I feel out of place in the larger Jewish community but I feel like a poser if I cover my hair and wear a skirt. We also will eat in regular restaurants...so you can't wear that kind of outfit into one without it being problematic. It's a sad issue.
"It isn't so silly when the minyannaires object to your presence because they don't need you, they need your husband."
Al, I apologize for not making the situation clear: In the days when our son was too young to stay home alone and Sunday morning was the only morning that my husband was available to care for him, I would take my only opportunity to go to minyan--and the minyannaires would ask me to go home and send my husband instead.
Shira, "Al, I apologize for not making the situation clear: In the days when our son was too young to stay home alone and Sunday morning was the only morning that my husband was available to care for him, I would take my only opportunity to go to minyan--and the minyannaires would ask me to go home and send my husband instead."
Again, it's misplaced anger and poor behavior. They wanted your husband there, they didn't "not want you." Or, if they didn't want you, it's the fact that a synagogue functions like the clubhouse in a comic book with a sign that says "No girlz allowed." :) Men and women need social outlets, the synagogue was the men's social outlet, why the need to take it away... go get your own. :)
Why you'd want to spend Sunday morning with such boorish people is beyond me, I'd rather make homemade pancakes for my kids (like I did last Sunday) than spend 45 minutes with a bunch of jerks that don't want me around.
Wanted to be liked by obnoxious people that don't like you is a very strange Jewish mental illness that I thankfully don't possess... :)
Trific was me, I hit the word verification in both boxes... :)
Sorry, never got around to finishing what I was going to say. Al first, then Z.
"they aren't upset that you are there, they are upset that the men aren't there for the men's club that the synagogue used to be. I reiterate my object to Heterodox Judaism, it's pushed the men out. Combined with the overly simple understanding that if the woman is Jewish, the children are, the husband/father and his role in Judaism has been marginalized by egalitarian Judaism that pushed the men out."
I agree that, as many woman have become more active in the synagogue, many men have become less so. But I'm not willing to write off the changes as poor ones. Many major changes in non-Orthodox Judaism have started off rather extreme, and been corrected at a later point. For example, the original American Reform prayer book was almost complete devoid of Hebrew, but Hebrew came roaring back into the Reform prayer book by the time I was in my twenties. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the current tip of the gender balance in a non-traditional direction will eventually even itself.
"I believe partnership minyans wait until 10 men AND 10 women... Bringing women into your services should not be an excuse to excuse the men, which it sadly becomes by dropping the minyan requirement."
Amen!
"I think that Tehillim Groups and "Amen" parties, as silly as them seem, seem like a more authenticate attempt to offer women that want it a communal prayer opportunity without taking on male roles, since they aren't reading a male-oriented prayer book." Yes, but . . . As I said to Steg in the comments to this recent post (once I calmed down enough to stop ranting at him :) ), is it really a good thing for men and women to be praying in completely different ways? I understand what you're saying, though. The jury may still be out on the question of whether it's preferable for women to pray the traditional prayers found in siddurim/prayer books that were written for men, or whether it's preferable for us to pray in a different way when praying in women's groups.
"rebuilding the decimated singles network is key" Amen to that, too! Why it doesn't seem to occur to the right-wing Orthodox community that their own adamant insistence on the complete separate of men and women at almost all times is contributing to the shidduch (matchmaking) crisis is beyond my comprehension.
"the Church created Monastaries and Convents to suck them up, we just lock the men up in Yeshiva and drive the women to suicide to avoid the problem..."
Okay, Al, now you've gone way past being depressing--that's downright grim.
Z, er Elianah-Sharon (sorry, still getting used to the new name), you said, "it's the fact that even if you ARE Conservative, which we are, it is hard to find community who is AS observant and who don't find YOUR level of observance uncomfortable." Ain't that the truth! My local congregation doesn't know what to do a tallit-and-tefillin-wearing feminist radical who takes the subway to her preferred synagogue on the Sabbath but who davvens (prays) three times a day and has higher standards of synagogue kashrut than 98% of the congregants. Heck, I don't know, either. :)
Back to Al:
"it's the fact that a synagogue functions like the clubhouse in a comic book with a sign that says "No girlz allowed." :) Men and women need social outlets, the synagogue was the men's social outlet, why the need to take it away... go get your own. :)"
And here I thought a shul was a place to davven (pray). Then again, there's the old joke that some people go to synagogue to talk to G-d, and others go to synagogue to talk to Moishe.
"Why you'd want to spend Sunday morning with such boorish people is beyond me, I'd rather make homemade pancakes for my kids (like I did last Sunday) than spend 45 minutes with a bunch of jerks that don't want me around."
Yum, can we drop by your place on a Sunday morning? :)
"Wanted to be liked by obnoxious people that don't like you is a very strange Jewish mental illness that I thankfully don't possess... :)"
Ouch. Touche.
But that doesn't change the fundamental fact that the canonized prayers were all written by and for men. Why do you expect women *not* to be offended by the fact that the only prayer-house in town was intended as a men's club?
I've heard that the men of the Breslav chassidic commnuity are encouraged to add an hour or more of hitbodedut, personal prayer to the standard Shacharit (Morning), Minchah (Afternoon), and Arvit/Maariv (Evening) Services. Meanwhile, the wife is at home taking care of the kids and/or working to support her husband who's in kollel. In a system in which prayer is considered mostly a guy thing, does anyone care when, or even whether, the women have an opportunity to pray?
Women are obligated to pray at least twice a day according to the mishna, shulchan aruch and mishnah berurah. More effort should be put into educating women as to what their obligations *are* than glossing off by saying that they are not obligated in anything (which is just as incorrect as saying that Orthodox women are equally obligated in tefillin). The Netziv lauded Chana as meritorious because she prayed b'zman, b'tzibbur, such that when she prayed alone, Eli thought she was drunk. Women are also just as obligated in "kiddush Hashem" which is not a time bound commandment--given that we are not expected to commit martyrdom, it is probably a good thing if a woman makes it to shul to fulfill that mitzvah by responding to kedushah.
However, it's a vicious cycle--because women were traditionally did not go to shul regularly, shuls also had no incentive to create women's sections conducive for prayer. Because the mechitzot are so offensive, women don't go to shul. I think the answer is for women to start showing up (CKJ's chapel has a very nice, low mechitza and expands the women's section into the men's section for slichot and fast days when more women show up) and create space for women to fulfill their obligations correctly--both through education and example.
It's kind of "obvious" I think, but hard to do. Theoretically I believe this, but find it hard to get my act together to go to shul on weekdays ;P. I think that the appointment of Maharat Hurvitz and educating yoatzot halacha is a positive step in creating such space for women to feel comfortable within the framework of Orthodox Judaism.
Shira wrote, "Why it doesn't seem to occur to the right-wing Orthodox community that their own adamant insistence on the complete separate of men and women at almost all times is contributing to the shidduch (matchmaking) crisis is beyond my comprehension."
Because they don't care. The Hareidi Camp (I HATE right-wing Orthodox, because it's NOT Orthodoxy, it's a nineteenth century splinter group) isn't lead by community leaders. The leadership aren't wise men looking out for their community. It's a Yeshiva led group with the heads of the Yeshivot in charge. The "leaders" are narrow Talmudists engaged in attempting to "look" the most severe. Look at the Chumrot (stringencies) absurdity... chumrot were added to that the laymen wouldn't risk transgressing, it was based on an assumption of general ignorance of the population. We now have the absurd situation where the group of men that have spent more time learning Talmud than Rambam did (he had careers, training, etc., not all day Torah) elevating rules designed to help the ignorant not transgress. If you actually learn Mishnah Beruah (WAY simpler), Gemara, etc., you learn all the loopholes and exceptions... a learned man need not add stringencies, my practice has become looser as I've learned because I learn the way around things... the Yeshiva world is learning loopholes academically, then practicing like the ignorant.
The Yeshiva heads are loyal to the bigwigs that give them money and want their daughters married to their best students. They have a second loyalty to their students. Their seems to be no shortage of brainwashed 18 year old girls who want to marry a "learner" because that's what they were taught and are marrying before really considering if that is the lifestyle they want... So why would they want change... the problems are girls from poor/modest families, so their fathers aren't donors and brothers aren't students, and men who are out earning a decent but not amazing living... the rich men have no problems attracting women, whether they are born rich and married at 20, or become wealthy and married at 35.
The people that SHOULD care are the RCA Rabbis whose congregations are suffering a problem from lack of social outlets, and if they realize that their congregation has a problem... but they send their children to Yeshivot, and they can't rock the boat for their community lest their children not be accepted into the right-wing group that they have sent their children to be educated with.
Further, "And here I thought a shul was a place to davven (pray). Then again, there's the old joke that some people go to synagogue to talk to G-d, and others go to synagogue to talk to Moishe."
A few months ago, one of our guys at the little Shul, nice religious guy, normally leins the service, really involved, was chatting with a friend during something, and one of the other guys shushed him for talking. He looked at him, laughed, and said, "I come here to talk, if I just wanted to pray, I can do that at home." :)
Besides, if we REALLY took "Talking to Gd" seriously, we'd read the book he wrote and rebuild the Beit Hamikdash. The fact that we've held the Temple Mount for 40 years and left a Mosque there while praying at a retaining wall as a "holy site" shows that we aren't all that serious about "Talking to Gd." Besides, Talking to Gd would get in the way of arguing about peanuts and quinoa.
Look at the Muslims, they rioted over a political cartoon that insulted them, and riot over rumors of Jews walking on the Temple Mount, those are people serious about their religion... we're more about Herring and Kiddush club... :)
"I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the current tip of the gender balance in a non-traditional direction will eventually even itself."
Mr. Yoffie's effort to bring Shabbat back to the Reform movement and away from Bar Mitzvah factories seems like a positive first step. Whether anything materializes from that, I don't know.
I see so many Israelis that buy kosher meats, have Shabbat dinner and usually have a Kosher Kitchen, but aren't Shomer Shabbat, so there is a middle way that might be stable... Conservative Judaism in America lack stability, the committed members become modern Orthodox, the less so drifted away, joined Reform for shorter services, or attend Sunday Church services with their spouse that are done in an hour.
RivkaYael, you said, "Women are obligated to pray at least twice a day according to the mishna, shulchan aruch and mishnah berurah." The question raised by Miami Al (and by Steg, in a comment to another post to which I linked in a previous comment here) is "What prayers should women be saying, when praying in a group?" Are women obligated to say Shacharit and Minchah, or will the recitation of tehillim/psalms and/or techinot (women's personal prayers), and/or attendance at an Amen group (a gathering of women at which women recite various blessings aloud for the express purpose of enabling other women to answer "amen") fulfill the obligation?
"it's a vicious cycle--because women were traditionally did not go to shul regularly, shuls also had no incentive to create women's sections conducive for prayer. Because the mechitzot are so offensive, women don't go to shul." Oy. :(
"Theoretically I believe this, but find it hard to get my act together to go to shul on weekdays ;P." Nu, if an alte apikorus (an old heretic) like me can pray three days a day . . .
"I think that the appointment of Maharat Hurvitz and educating yoatzot halacha is a positive step in creating such space for women to feel comfortable within the framework of Orthodox Judaism."
I agree.
Now excuse me while I translate:
b'zman = at the rabbinically-ordained correct time
b'tzibbur = literally, "in community"--praying b'tzibbur means praying with a minyan
"kiddush Hashem" = the sanctification of G-d's name
yoetzet (plural: yoatzot) halachah
Al said...
Shira wrote, "Why it doesn't seem to occur to the right-wing Orthodox community that their own adamant insistence on the complete separate of men and women at almost all times is contributing to the shidduch (matchmaking) crisis is beyond my comprehension."
Because they don't care. The Hareidi Camp (I HATE right-wing Orthodox, because it's NOT Orthodoxy, it's a nineteenth century splinter group) isn't lead by community leaders. The leadership aren't wise men looking out for their community. It's a Yeshiva led group with the heads of the Yeshivot in charge. The "leaders" are narrow Talmudists engaged in attempting to "look" the most severe."
You a serious cynic, Al. You remind me of a comment (posted here?) that I read some months ago saying that the reason why one of the most brilliant women I know is still single is that the Orthdox community doesn't value intelligence--a woman is judged by her dress size, a man by his (or his family's) wealth. Zeesh, if your description of right-wing Orthodox attitudes is accurate, it's a wonder *anyone* in the right-wing Orthodox world, other than the rich and/or the best learners, ends up married.
"The people that SHOULD care are the RCA Rabbis whose congregations are suffering a problem from lack of social outlets, and if they realize that their congregation has a problem... but they send their children to Yeshivot, and they can't rock the boat for their community lest their children not be accepted into the right-wing group that they have sent their children to be educated with."
I think this problem may be worse in smaller Jewish communities without a choice of yeshivot--if there's only one game in town . . .
"I come here to talk, if I just wanted to pray, I can do that at home." :)
Another wiseguy heard from. :)
"Talking to Gd would get in the way of arguing about peanuts and quinoa."
That reminds me of a story recently told by my rabbi. Apparently, he had the chutzpa (nerve) to be seen in a right-wing Orthodox community wearing a white straw hat on a summer day. So some "kanai" (zealot) calls out from across the street, "Change your hat!" What terrible representative for Torah's pleasant ways and paths of peace would deem it wrong for a man to wear anything but a black hat, but perfectly acceptable to humiliate another human being in public. Hillel is turning in his grave. :(
"I see so many Israelis that buy kosher meats, have Shabbat dinner and usually have a Kosher Kitchen, but aren't Shomer Shabbat, . . ."
Hmm, sounds like my parents and my brother and ex-sister-in-law and their kids in Israel.
". . . so there is a middle way that might be stable... Conservative Judaism in America lack stability, the committed members become modern Orthodox, the less so drifted away,. . ."
What do the Israelis know that we don't know? In all seriousness, why do you think their "middle way" is stable, whereas that of American Conservative Judaism is not?
Shira,
Responding to the last comment: I think that the Masorati "traditional" families are more stable (than the Conservative movement in the States) is that the overall culture in Israel supports it. One, the calendar is Jewish, so you don't need to be "heroic" in order to keep Shabbat and Chagim - they are built in holidays. Two, there are many laws (the very left wing secularists call this religious coercion) that make it difficult to sell non-kosher meat. You can go into any grocery store in the country and 99% of the products are kosher, and in most cities you can easily find a kosher restaurant. Here again you don't need to be "heroic" to eat kosher. Three, it is normal to be somewhere in the middle between completely secular and Orthodox (statistics show that the majority of Israelis are traditional). You can go to fancy hotels anywhere in Israel and see men putting table napkins on their heads in order to make kiddush Friday evening (the wine and rolls automatically put on each table). These same men will go swimming with their kids in the pool on Shabbat morning.
Another, perhaps negative aspect, is that in Israel noone takes life for granted. Unfortunately, between the wars and the terrorist attacks, people are a bit more in touch with what is important in life (granted, this is a generalization, there are superficial people here too...)and I think this also adds to the desire for some sort of connection with G-d and tradition.
Shira, it seems more stable in Israeli culture, even when they live in the US, because it's a more "natural" Judaism than the Conservative American Judaism...
First off, when they go to synagogue, it's Orthodox, so it's an acknowledgment of Orthodoxy as correct... this matters because they take as given that one SHOULD keep Shabbat and Kashrut, even if they don't all the time. So Shabbat and Kashrut are at the center of Masorti life, even if not fully observed. Whereas in the Reform (and to a lesser extent, Conservative) American Judaism, Shabbat is something that you do from time to time, not something each week.
Second, Shabbat dinner is the family dinner for Israeli families. Even if not Shomer Shabbat, Shabbat is a special day, it's not in non-Orthodox American culture.
A non-Orthodox American Jewish family will have as their close friends mostly non-Jewish families, so they might have their holidays, but their friends don't. To the non-observant Israeli, most of their family friends are other Israeli families, so their holidays are Jewish holidays.
The Israeli approach is: we all agree on Judaism, we just don't all practice to the same level. That results in families that may have Shomer Shabbat and non-Shomer Shabbat members, which means you are able to accommodate the Shomer Shabbat ones because there is an agreement that one "ought" to be... In contrast, there is no agreement that one ought to be Shomer Shabbat in non-Orthodox American families, so the observant members get persecuted.
If the synagogue you don't go to is Orthodox, you don't get wrapped up in the egalitarian issue which puts a BIG wedge between observant Conservative and lax Modern Orthodox.
But I think its stable because Israeli masorti Jews expect Shabbat to be observed (even if just Kiddush before dinner), their children to marry Jews, and an exception of what Judaism ought to be. In contrast, those are all controversial matters in a Conservative synagogue where intermarriage is commonplace, or sham conversions where children are celebrating Christmas with their gentile (or convert) parent's family, even if not in their home.
The commonness of intermarriage, plus sham conversions have robbed Conservative Judaism were their sense of continuity and purpose.
Besides, the masorti Israelis have held this position for generations, with families that had different levels of observance over time... in Arab lands, some Jewish shopkeepers were open on Shabbat, others weren't, but they all lived in the Jewish quarter and went to the same synagogues. In contrast, Conservative Judaism has been demographically off a cliff for quite a while... and I don't see a resurgence, because there doesn't appear to be anything in the offing that will pull young people with families into conservative circles as the leadership seems more concerned with fighting Reform for gay Jews, singles, and other "marginal" groups... marginal in that they don't help bulk up the core.
WSM, it's certainly easier to be Jewish in Israel, where "the overall culture supports it" and one doesn't have to be "heroic" to observe Shabbat and Yamim Tovim (major holidays). Been there, done that--good luck trying to explain Sukkot to an Irish Catholic boss. He did give me the days off, but, of course, I didn't get paid for them. One of the main reasons why non-Orthodox Jews usually don't take days off from work for Jewish holidays is that it's a major financial sacrifice. And, of course, kosher food and restaurants are much more readily available in Israel, which makes keeping kosher much less of a challenge.
"Three, it is normal to be somewhere in the middle between completely secular and Orthodox (statistics show that the majority of Israelis are traditional)." "In the middle" may be a good description of a lot of American Jews, in terms of observance, but there's such a strong conciousness of denominational labels that something as non-demonational-sounding as "traditional" just doesn't "fly" in the US. Most Jews who observe any of Jewish tradition "peg" themselves as members of a denomination, rather than just saying they're "traditional." In short, American culture does not support Judaism, and American Jewish culture is too splintered to support a general "traditional" Judaism.
Al, you have no kind words for Conservative Judaism. Everything is "Orthodox is authentic, and the rest is second best, and ackowledged as such." I hate to burst your bubble, but there are non-Orthodox synagogues (Masorti and whatever the Israelis call Reform/Liberal) and schools (my nieces and nephew went to a Tali school) in Israel.
On the other hand, I've have far too much experience with non-Orthdox Jews for whom "Shabbat is something that you do from time to time, not something each week." It was a lack of kids to hang out with that caused our son to hate go to synagogue on Shabbat/Sabbath and Chagim (holidays).
Shira wrote, "I hate to burst your bubble, but there are non-Orthodox synagogues (Masorti and whatever the Israelis call Reform/Liberal) and schools (my nieces and nephew went to a Tali school) in Israel"
Sure there are... they are a rounding error in Israeli culture. They are about as relevant to the Israeli culture as partnership minyanim are to American Orthodoxy.
They are populated by American ex-pats, funded by Americans, and generally only relevant when someone in the US throw a tantrum about funding.
You also wrote, "Al, you have no kind words for Conservative Judaism."
Neither do you. :) It's been a failure. I don't know if something more like masorti (non-capitalized) Judaism would work in the US, I don't mean the Masorti movement that took the common term and tried to appropriate the word -- intellectually dishonest... it seems to work in Israeli ex-pat communities...
Then again, in the US, they were historically referred to as "nominally Orthodox," and that was a large chunk of Orthodoxy 30 years ago... it seems to have frittered away, the children either practicing Orthodox or non-practicing something else, so it didn't work within the US culture.
Then again, nominally Orthodox individuals were integrated into American culture, in Israel, the prevalent culture is Masorti/nominally Orthodox.
A few weeks ago, the Jerusalem Post ran an article on Conservative Judaism as a Three Generation Movement, which I found interesting... the BT ranks are heavily populated with Conservative Jews, so the weigh-station may have worked until Orthodoxy was able to figure out a non-failing model, but Conservative lost theirs.
The Conservative movement doesn't have room for observant families as your son's experiences show... it falls into the same trap Reform did... focusing too much on the adults.
Judaism is a religion for passing on to children, not giving adults room to self actualize. Sure we have Shiurim and other things for adults to do, but if people lose interest when the kids grow up and start families, the Orthodox world doesn't care. My parent's Reform temple has lots of adult education programs for empty-nesters that want to reconnect to their heritage... but at least when I was a kid, certainly no Shabbat programming to give us a special day that wasn't television, video games, and soccer/baseball.
Reform and Modern Orthodoxy have the same problem, they are intellectual movements designed around intellectually curious adults, losing site of the children. Conservative Judaism and Centrist Orthodoxy have the same problem... wishy washy loses, religions tend towards fundamentalism or die off, because kids find it hypocritical or inauthentic, and by the time they are old enough to understand their parents struggles and challenges weren't hypocritical but the challenges of real life, they are married to a gentile and living in a suburb with few Jews in it.
Here is an article in the NY Times that mentions the Amigo Shabbat and other technology: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/business/worldbusiness/02kosher.html?pagewanted=all
Al, I'll get back to you when I'm awake--just leaving the office now!
Layla, thanks for the link--will check it when I have a free minute.
Making a living can be annoying, but it sure beats *not* making a living!
Eventually, I'll have time to post a full response, but I did wish to comment briefly on Al's assertion that "Judaism is a religion for passing on to children, not giving adults room to self actualize." I think there has to be a balance. If Judaism is not for kids, it won't survive. My son always hated synagogue because there were no other kids there and he was bored. This post expresses some thoughts of mine concerning the difficulty of maintaining a healthy balance.
But if Judaism's *only* for kids, we run into the "Bar/Bat Mitzvah Syndrome" of teens & adults for whom Judaism ends after that rite of passage. The mitzvot/commandments and traditional practices of Judaism--prayer, observing Sabbath and holidays, keeping kosher, studying Jewish texts, being ethical and charitable and caring for others--are all designed at least equally for adults. Judaism isn't something that one outgrows.
I finally got an answer to the following April 24 question of mine:
"RivkaYael, you said, "Women are obligated to pray at least twice a day according to the mishna, shulchan aruch and mishnah berurah." The question raised by Miami Al (and by Steg, in a comment to another post to which I linked in a previous comment here) is "What prayers should women be saying, when praying in a group?" Are women obligated to say Shacharit and Minchah, or will the recitation of tehillim/psalms and/or techinot (women's personal prayers), and/or attendance at an Amen group (a gathering of women at which women recite various blessings aloud for the express purpose of enabling other women to answer "amen") fulfill the obligation?
On May 3, RivkaYael replied by e-mail:
"To my knowledge, the biblical commandment to pray (as elucidated by the Rambam) consists of praise, thanksgiving and supplication. The requirement to fulfill the biblical oblligation through the shemonei esrei is a rabbinic commandment. Therefore a woman could technically fulfill her biblical obligation but be lacking in observance of the rabbinic commandment if she said techines (or something like that)."
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